How to use radio to bring in motivated seller leads with Grace Mills – Payneless Flipping Podcast

In this video, we’re going to have a special guest, Grace Mills. Grace Mills has been the “secret weapon” behind REI Radio Program since it launched. The person working behind the scenes coaching investors and agents on how to explode their Real Estate business with Radio ads. Grace worked side by side with Chris Arnold on the creation of the beta roll out of the program. She spent years split testing every element of Radio to determine all the fundamental “do’s and don’ts” in radio. Find out how to use radio to bring in motivated seller leads and learn from her experiences. Check out this video to learn more.

All right. Welcome everyone. This is Nathan Payne with investor drive. And we are live at the podcast, the Payneless Wholesaling Podcast and I have an amazing guest with us today we are Grace Mills at REI radio, where she’s going to tell us all about how amazing the radio is. Now who would have thought people should listen to radio? Right? Right.

Well, hello, hello, everyone. And thank you so much, Nathan for having me on today. Any chance I get to add value to you and your audience considering all the value that you share? I’m happy to do so more than happy.

Yeah, so let’s get started. I have a lot of questions about the radio as in lead gen service. A lot of questions about you know, where you how you got your start. So let’s just dive right into it. Tell us tell the audience really quick like in 30 seconds like a little bit about yourself and then we can dive into you know, your how you got started in real estate all that?

I’m sure absolutely. I’ve always been in love with Legion and marketing. I studied that actually in college before I quit. I just got too expensive. I like making money. I do not like collecting debt.

I went to school in a very small school in Bridgeport, Connecticut. Really cold blizzards was terrible. We went to class and heavy blizzards on top of just collecting a ton of debt. So I’ve always loved marketing and lead gen, I ended up working as like a an assistant for like a virtual real estate, you know, kind of network found the point that I really, really clicked with and went to work with him directly. And that being Chris Arnold, and at the time, there was no one controlling the marketing, not a single person. It was very, like, just build some stuff on the wall, see if it sticks. So I jumped in and we started looking at well, okay, how do we get motivated sellers in here. So that’s genuinely how I got my start about nine, nine or 10 years ago, almost. I started doing the marketing for an actual real estate investment company. And that is how we discovered radio. And I have tinkered and played with every little element of it since then.

So Chris Arnold, that sounds familiar, is that a bigger bigger investor out there? Sounds familiar?

Yeah. And DFW 100% He ended up branching, you know, you had a brokerage at the time as well. So there was the retail side and there was the investment side as well. Um, and then Chris actually ended up just launching like his own mastermind.

What’s his mastermind called?

Multipliers was the mastermind being launched.

Okay. Yeah, I have to look that up anyway. So are you still with Chris or

no, now I run Rei Radio 100%. It is my full attention to genuinely at this point, help everyone else realize that there’s a marketing channel that everyone knows about, but no one is using it is under utilized on the real estate investment side. 100%.

What would you say the return on investment is on radio? Like, what’s the return? Yeah,

that is a great question. And I get that a lot. A lot of people were really, really concerned about that. I would tell you that one, it starts with a mindset shift. Radio is quality, not quantity. And sometimes people are trying to take their numbers and your KPIs are what you’re used to maybe from direct mail and cold calling and gone Hey, okay, why should be looking for this on radio as well. Radio filters itself out? Literally, there’s no need for a tire kicker to call you. Right? Like on direct mail, you get those people were like, Hey, I got your card in the mail. Can you give me a ballpark and then not really being serious? Radio to listeners? Sounds like it’s so difficult to get on that they take you more seriously. And so their brain isn’t thinking well, hey, let me just kind of call entire kick this around or, or kind of waste their time when they call you. They’re really sure about it because radio gives you so much more credibility in some of these worlds. Yeah, absolutely. That they filter themselves out in terms of motivation. In terms of numbers, though, at an absolute minimum, it is a three to $4 Return I’ve had students that blow that completely out of the water like to next their business on a really on a radio deal. But if you’re tracking radio it is it at least three to four. If it falls beneath that there’s a big, big, big problem, and it’s probably a bad station.

Have you found that specific markets do better with radio like for example, like a really smaller market like 40,000 50,000 people they really crush it because those people maybe are don’t have that many options are versus like San Antonio or Salt Lake City, Utah.

That’s another really great question. I would tell you that there’s about 230 radio markets and they all can work just with a couple of different strategies in place. So if you’re in a larger market, you probably really only need to pick up one station, right? Like if you’re in Salt Lake City, if you’re in Miami, Dallas, something like that. You can literally pick up about one station I’m at a time when you’re going to do perfectly fine. In a market that’s a little bit smaller. You know, something like Lubbock, Texas, what I usually do there is we use like a stacking method. So we pick up maybe two to three at a time to reach the same amount of people that you would in the larger market. Because I go by size of an audience. That’s how I believe in buying a station. That’s how I believe in filtering it out. It is all about the size of the actual audience so that you know that there’s a an actual return there. But if you your target audiences there, there is game in any of those market large or small, it just maybe we play with a slightly different strategy in terms of how many you pick up at a time.
Yeah, cuz I have a, one of my friends, his name is William tingle, he runs a subject to coaching company. He’s been doing YouTube for like 20 years, he’s awesome. But he he just said, he moved to Arkansas, and he heard about radio. So he just tried it out because someone in one of his students went to like a seminar and figured out how to do it. So he just tried it. And he said, he got like an $80,000 deal within like his first week or two, because it someone just called him was like ready to go. And he got it done. So I believe it works. I’ve heard it works, I guess where I would stop or where most people would stop is they don’t know how to start, right?

Yeah, cuz I have a, one of my friends, his name is William tingle, he runs a subject to coaching company. He’s been doing YouTube for like 20 years, he’s awesome. But he he just said, he moved to Arkansas, and he heard about radio. So he just tried it out because someone in one of his students went to like a seminar and figured out how to do it. So he just tried it. And he said, he got like an $80,000 deal within like his first week or two, because it someone just called him was like ready to go. And he got it done. So I believe it works. I’ve heard it works, I guess where I would stop or where most people would stop is they don’t know how to start, right?

100%, I would probably nail it down this way in the most simplest terms. And I like I’m a big person, if it’s not free, I look for cheap options. So the best free way to really truly just get started is by looking at your market. So I’ll just use Google, for example, right? Like you can go to Google and type in radio stations and your market, let’s say it’s Salt Lake City, so a great radio station, Salt Lake City, Google will drop down an entire list of all the stations that’s available roughly. And at least you can get a couple of contacts, I would tell people pick about maybe two I mean, like two different stations. So you could see and I’m making this up, but it could be like w x, y, z owned by heart, what right I would take that contact number down, and then I’d find someone that’s non IR, maybe you have a mom and pop or, um, there could be like a Beasley Media Group or intercom or CBS Radio, like in terms of ownership. And I would literally just take down their phone numbers and give them a quick call, why is there a quick call is you are calling a seasoned radio rep. They are really, really good at talking. And sometimes talking, you went to something that was not going to serve you whatsoever. So in a quick call, I will keep it under 15 minutes. And I would roughly say hey, I’m looking to pick up maybe two to three stations. I just wanted to get an idea of your stations or your listeners, can you send me any data that you have on it, what you’re looking for is to make sure that that station is actually hitting your target audience. If you are running a whole selling company, you need to make sure that you’re in front of homeowners, all stations aren’t even. And I mean that truly I’ll use an example I have some students that have come in and say hey, well, I know my audience is very blue collar. So I need to pick up maybe a country station country stations aren’t even there could be a very fluent, right like they’re highly educated and financially well off on one country station. And then another that’s a little bit low medium income, maybe a little bit more blue collar, but you won’t know that just by looking at a station, you absolutely have to collect at least some information on that. So yeah, I would say that as the best start is just do a quick Google search for free just to get an idea and then take that data that they send you and really just make sure hey, are Is this my actual target audience? Are there homeowners here? Are these the actual homeowners I typically with service especially in terms of age, and then go from there? That is the best way to start? That’s really cool. How does

how would the radio station know who’s listening to it if they just flip on the radio? And how do they know the demographic and like blue collar or not? How’s that work?

Yeah, every station tracks its own audience because everyone wants to be able to promote it if I had $1 for everyone that said we’ve got the number one audience for or we’re the number one country station every country station in your area is going to say they’re the number one country station of course they’re not but yes, they all track it to some degree and there’s even some third party companies that will come in and literally just track the entire area and all the stations and some stations will pay to access that information. So if you request some data from them they’re gonna send you a mixture of maybe what the third party pulled and then also their particular stats as well just what they’ve been tracking in house in terms of their audience.

It’s interesting I wonder how they track if I turn on the radio right now and listen to country like a my listener even though I never listened to the radio, like I don’t know how they would do that. But yeah,

there’s a ton of software honestly, which is its own conversation, but in markets they’re in you probably have seen it while you’re sitting in traffic. There’s like a giant truck with like a weird thing hanging off the side of it. And that is surveying the radio stations as people are kind of driving around in it has the ability to track the number of people that are listening but also differentiate or at least be able to tell Oh, what’s unique and what’s a returning listener? And that’s a really, really, really important stat you want to pay attention to because sales reps, you know, when you call them they’re going to try and pull the beefiest number they possibly can, you do want to make sure that that is a unique number, or at least a unique listener count, not a duplicate, because they will definitely include duplicate listeners just to beef up the number

think radio will die eventually, with the way like, there’s Spotify and all these other radio apps and stuff. What’s your opinion on that

if radio were was going to die, I think it would have died when print died, right? Because it’s been around forever print TV and radio have been around for forever. So when print died out, I think everyone was expecting radio and even possibly TV to kind of go with it. No, I actually don’t, there are so many different types of people and what draws them to listen to stations, there is a especially if you’re looking at like a mature aged audience. As much as technology is available, they are very much still comfortable doing their regular activities, and that is getting inside of their car and turning back on their their typical stations, they’re very loyal listeners in that way where they’re not going to change that if anyone is streaming, they’re typically young, you know, I get that question a lot. You know, hey, like, if I’m looking at Radio, should I probably look into streaming, if your audience or your who you typically work with in terms of sellers are like 45. And up, I would tell you know, that audience that streaming radio is going to be much younger, 45 and plus and up, they’re not going to start streaming their usual radio stations. It’s like an extra effort for them. That doesn’t really make any sense.

Interesting. So I’m curious. I’m pretty adept. I feel like I know what a lot of the coaches or people are talking about. I don’t hear radio a lot. Is there any reason?

It’s underutilized? Yeah. In terms of real estate investors 100%. You’ll find Realtors maybe in your market that are probably pick it up first, because their brokerages kind of introduced that topic of using more traditional marketing like radio. But in terms of investors, it’s it is always there. It’s the marketing channel that everyone knows about. But next to no one is using. And it’s not because it doesn’t work. It’s just like a mindset shift. It’s like your brain isn’t thinking, Oh, well, really radio. And then there’s the thought that maybe radio is a little bit difficult to set up. And that it’s incredibly expensive. It’s expensive. If you don’t know how to buy 100%, the process will feel a lot tougher, and it’ll feel really drawn out or you’ll get backed into really bad deals. Because you’re taking you know, sales reps can be really useful. They know their stations very well. They don’t understand real estate. They’re not real estate experts, they will tell you that oh hey, you’re working real estate I know a thing or two they don’t. They 100% don’t and so yeah, on twofold. One, it’s like mentally people think that it’s a little bit difficult, it’s a little bit more expensive. And secondly, those who have tried to previously more than likely had a bad station, they overpaid for it and will push just completely into a bad deal that that burned out their their taste on it.

Yeah. So you negotiate specific ad slots and buy in bulk or something like that, as I kind of how you you do the deal. Like you try to negotiate obviously with him.

And Rei radio is a done for you system. Now it used to be like a do it yourself and just walk through every single step that you needed to take. I don’t believe in and buying in bulk, but I teach students to do is buy it based on the size of the audience. And that way, you’re actually buying it below retail. If you were to purchase station right now they’re going to hit you with retail. And then so because they are trying to sell you on not only the size of the station, but oh, look, look at how popular we are, you can’t buy popularity, popularity doesn’t mean that you’re going to make any money, right? That’s not going to work with you. So depending on the person and what they’re trying to achieve, I play with a unique strategy for each just like I said, I really want to maximize what’s best for that person, everyone’s a little different in terms of what type of real estate business that they’re running. And so we don’t buy in bulk, but there are better timeframes to advertise than others. And that’s and that’s what I actually negotiate for those specific time timeframes.

I find this very interesting because I’ve tried TV. So I set up a got set up, I used it was either done for you approach, or you did it ourselves. So we did ourselves and we didn’t we spend like five or $10,000 and we didn’t get a return. We did barely got any leads out of it. Salt Lake City is a extremely competitive market when it comes to real estate. We know that but it didn’t work out. So what would the investment be on something for the listeners that are here? Or will watch this like what would investment be for like starting radio and like how many leads would you could you expect, right? Like, I know you can’t you’re not going to over promise right? And I don’t think that’s the right way to do but just kind of give me an idea if someone came to you, or if I came to you said what, what can I expect for this investment?

Yeah, and that’s a really solid question. I would tell you that value in terms of leads can vary. I’ve seen students pull in like 1020 lead is a week and then I’ve seen students only pulling five leads a week, but they both still convert roughly the same. It just depends. If you are looking at like solid, at least two deals a month, I would roughly tell you my most of my students are spending anywhere between 1500 to $2,000 a month, if you are looking at four deals a month and plus, especially if you have a team that you need to feed, you’re probably looking at about three, I probably say about three to $4,500 a month on radio, but a lot of students start about a 1500 to 2000. Is that

through your service? Or is that an addition? There’s an additional fee? I’m assuming on top of the ad spend of 15 to 2000?

Yes. So that’s just the ad spend in terms of deals. But yeah, if you were to sign up for my, my particular program, it is 7500 total for, you know, for the entire service, of course that can be split into monthly payments. But in terms of ad spend, yeah, you would most of my students are probably starting anywhere between 1500 to 2000. If you’re looking at four deals plus a month, you’re probably pushing about $3,000 a month.

Cool, cool. So So 75 is just some feed not even a fee. It’s just like what your service cost to do it and then you run their ads for them. They spend it but you set it all up for this for unlimited forever, for just a year. How was how’s that work?

Yeah, so the program itself was about four months, it doesn’t take us four months to get you on radio at all. Like I said, we’ve already got best strategies in terms of getting the best deal. But we do want to make sure that we get you the best setup possible, is evaluating everything that could be a potential option in your market to play with, I want to play with it. There are large players like I heart, like I said, but then you also have mom and pops, which a lot of people ignore, they’re kind of hard to find. But if they’re your target audience is there and there’s a chance for you to make money, I want to take full advantage of it. So we literally start by looking at the entire landscape and going okay, what can we play with what we can can we take advantage of and then the funnest part is negotiating for the lowest price possible for to get the best deal. Um, no one on my team wants you to spend more money than necessarily, it’s more exciting to actually pull discounts out of a sales rep than it is to just agree to whatever high price that they tell you once or twice. So yeah, we’ll negotiate everything and then manage and maintain it help you with your actual scripts, because your ad message once you get on a station is just as important as picking the right station is getting the messaging correct, because you can get on the right station. But if your message is off, it won’t convert well at all. If you’re if you’re saying it the wrong way to this group of people,

do you usually have the person that’s paying for the ads or your service? Do the voice? Or do you have like a voice person, a coach or someone? Yeah. Do you have someone that does it?

That is another really great question. I get that a lot as well. Some people are kind of nervous about that. And they’re like, Well, hey, I’m not super well spoken. I have an accent, I have a list, maybe I don’t think that my voice belongs on radio. And that’s where you’re actually wrong. Nine times out of 10, I will tell you, you want to put your own voice on there, especially post COVID People need to hear from who they believe is the business owner, or at least a decision maker, it builds a lot more credibility. On top of building that credibility. Your voice will also allow you to be almost like a local celebrity. I have people all the time going, hey, you know, I was out in public and this person kept staring at me and going well, where did I hear your voice from? I think I’ve heard that from somewhere. Where is it? And they’re like, Oh, I heard you on radio. That’s what. So there’s the option to honestly grow yourself as a local celebrity there that I want everyone to take full advantage of. Um, but I would definitely tell you to really build rapport with the audience, you really do want to use your actual voice, even you don’t have to be well spoken. I don’t care if you have an accent, I actually will tell you that most people that do really, really well on radio are actually not well spoken. And they do have an accent because people live with it. Yes. You know, if you come across so professional and everything sounds so clean and cookie cutter, it’s like you’re gonna scare people with problems away. And you want people with problems to feel comfortable calling you so put your voice on there 1,000%

Like that. So how do people get a hold of you if they want to try this for my my my listeners for painless nation investors, Dr. Nation, how do they get a hold

of you? Yeah, so you can hop over to the website. It’s WW dot r e i Forward slash investor, Rei forward slash investor.

I love it. And then I also do have a link that I can send out to people as well. Is that correct? Yes. Love it. All right. And I can do that for anybody that’s interested hit me up. I can send you the link to sign up as well. And then they How does that work? Do they just don’t talk directly to you to you? Do you have a sales rep? How does how does that process work?

You want to talk to me? Because I love talking to people. I’m super honest, if there’s anything in that sounds like this may not be up your alley, and there might be something a little bit better for you, I’m going to tell you that otherwise, if it’s I’m like, Hey, this is a great opportunity, I really think you should take advantage of this, I’m going to be honest and tell you that either way, I do not believe in encouraging people to spend money if I don’t see you potentially making a return. So you 100% Once you go to that link, you’re just going to sign up, and then we’ll book a call, that’s a little bit convenient for you on a calendar, and then we’ll talk about what that looks like, and how we can get you set up and rolling. So well, from

the numbers that you told me 1500, on average of take one for one to two deals a month? Is that correct? Is that what you said

1500 to 2000 is more or less one to two solid deals a month. Um, now again, like I said, I’ve had students that have private like 123, it just depends on the market. But if I’m playing it safe, those are the safest numbers for plus, I would probably be pushing you 3000 And up. And that’s again, because we’re looking at buying it by the size of the audience. And so just the larger the station that you’re on, obviously, the more opportunities you’re going to get. But that doesn’t mean we have to spend it all if there’s an opportunity to find something cheaper. That’s similar, not as competitive and not as expensive. I’m 100% going to go after that as well. If it’s still the best deal, you know, that’s

an amazing, that’s amazing return on your investment. Because if if most deals are like $15,000 And yes, I honestly I’ll be real like most I haven’t really heard of that kind of marketing that exists like even cold calling, texting, pay per click those all are ranging anywhere from like sometimes like three to $6,000 right now. So that’s, that’s amazing. Yeah,

honestly, I have not, I’ve never had a student pulling anything less than $15,000 on a deal. I mean, I’ve had people and that’s the interesting about thing about radio is that it really challenges business owners to expand what they thought they were going to be in business servicing. What I mean by that is I have people that are like, Well, hey, I’m only doing this for wholesaling I’m in the longer that you advertise, people assume you can solve all of their real estate problems. So you can get land deals, someone will call you with a mobile home. People are like, Well, hey, do you know, you know, where I can find a new rental property? And so it ends up forcing you to really go, Hey, like I’m generating all these leads, like what else can I do with them. So I highly encourage people to like, if you don’t handle your real your rental leads, sell them to a property manager will property management company in your area, there’s always someone looking to buy mobile homes, even if you don’t want to, if you don’t want to deal with land, there are plenty of people, I’m sure and a Facebook group that will be happy to take it off your hands and you can sell it to them or JV it so 100% There’s a ton of opportunity there. Have you ever tried

to sell your Rei radio, on the radio,

on radio, most of the people that I need to get in front of are not actually thinking that they want to use this as a marketing channel. So no, in most cases, I highly believe in going to where many people kind of where they’re at, and then taking them to where they need to be. And so for most people that this is would work wonders for their business, I actually meet them at other marketing channels, and they’re like, oh, Duh, of course, that would work. Because most of the people that that are running real estate businesses, they’re more likely to be listening to maybe like talk stations, if they are listening to Radio, I’m kind of getting a grasp on what they can do for their future investments. And so they’re not thinking the sellers that I need to get in front of are also potentially listening to radio.

Is there a way to target a specific county city area with radio? Or is it kind of difficult since anyone can tune in and like a radius? Like can you just have listeners Listen, like if I want a specific like zip code.

Now, not as it’s not that tight in terms of zip code. But every single station does track its own signal lines, to show you where and how far a signal actually goes out. And that’s one of the biggest things that we check for is are you going to be in a station where you’re hitting the area that you have to service or the bulk of this station actually going out of your way, if it’s out of your way, that’s a waste of money, I don’t care how great of a deal we get it from. So yeah, it can be a couple of things. Some stations can stretch across an entire county, maybe only a piece of a county, or stretch across an entire city or maybe a city and a half. It just depends but you won’t get it as tightly in terms of a zip code.

Got it. Got it. Because a lot of the strategy I teach is like to target areas like specific areas for buyers that you have. So it’s easy to just target but it sounds like you could do that in the sense of like what you’re saying what the radius is of the station. So this is this is honestly something I’d be interested in trying. We should talk further. But this is interesting this the cool thing about podcasts and Reverend little thing is I’m asking questions. I’m generally interested in learning about which service everyone here that listens because these are probably questions they’d have. So podcasts are awesome for connecting learning and I’m glad to have you on here because I was really interested in learning about this. Do you have anything else you’d like to leave listeners with before we wrap up today’s you know at

So yeah, it’s a phrase that I’ve been throwing around lately, and especially dealing with radio, if I can just leave this. Lastly, you can’t hire the fox to guard your henhouse. And what I mean by that is sales reps, like I mentioned earlier, are really great talkers. But they are very limited in what they’re going to understand in terms of real estate. So you have to be very careful to take what they tell you and kind of in a grain of salt. You can’t hire a fox to protect the henhouse your money is it? They’re not like looking at you spending money and going, Oh, wow, like you work really hard for that. Let me make sure I get the best deal. They will. Some of them will take that into consideration, but they’re still protecting their bottom line. It’s a sales rep. You know, they’re their sales representative for that particular reason. So you have to be very careful. One of their favorite phrases is, this is the best deal that we have, or this is the lowest price that we have available. It’s never the lowest and it’s never the best. There’s always something better. So I’ll leave that you guys. Just keep that in mind. Can’t ever hire a fox to protect your henhouse. You have to be very careful.

Love. He’s trying to get paid. All right. And then and we will see on the next one later.

Thank you again for having me. Of course.